Yeah, like. The Gansey/Blue stuff in Dream Thieves felt very.. weird.. to me. Like Raven Boys ends that relationship more or less on the note of Gansey outright ignoring the vision and physically pushing Blue out of the way to get to Adam to make sure he's okay. So when we get to stuff like "whatever sort of lamp it went to, Gansey looked like he wanted one" I'm just sort of like "really? since when? why?"
And the whole thing of Blue blaming Adam for not being invited to DC was very ??? to me since this never gets brought up with Gansey-- aka the literal person that invites Adam in the first place, and who was responsible for the trip. Which made their breakup feel sort of- contrived. Which is not to say that Adam didn't behave badly, but their fight seemed less about that and more this weird take that Adam was just treating her like someone he wanted to kiss. So it kind of comes across like "I need them to break up now" and less letting the characters driving the conflict.
One of the things I actually found frustrating about the "Maggie reads the Raven Cycle" tweets, is that for the ones I've gone through so far, she very clearly thinks she telegraphs Gansey/Blue better than it ever came across to me as a reader.
I could pick up on some very vague Adam and Ronan hints in Dream Thieves- but I think that only worked because I knew going in. Whereas the narrative doesn't really mention it at all. We get "Ronan's second secret was Adam Parrish ... It was hard not to stare at the odd and elegant lines of his face." Which does not really suggest interest from either of them at all.
TL;DR, I 100% didn't feel either of the endgame ships were set up well in Dream Thieves at all. It actually sort of irks me a bit. Because I feel like if Ronan did have those feelings, I wanted some hint to come up during his confrontation with Kavinsky in the forest.
"What's here K? Nothing" "Just us" "That's not enough" "Don't say Gansey and don't say you don't swing that way, I'm in your head", etc. Like the fact that Ronan's response there is about Kavinsky allegedly misinterpreting what Gansey is to him, and does not touch on the idea that he apparently has that romantic interest for Adam at all -- not even in the narration -- is Weird.
Personally, I feel like in TRB/TDT, Adam and Gansey both have some unhealthy tendencies toward Roman (and Ronan has some unhealthy tendencies toward both Gansey and K). But I think Gansey's is the one that seems to lean itself more toward an actual relationship.
Like, Adam is just so apathetic about Ronan. And it really seems to come from a place where his inability to accept help is put on other people. Gansey, on the other hand, seems to come from that he's spent the past several months thinking that Ronan had literally tried to kill himself, and that he needs to do everything he can to buy Ronan as much time as he possibly can to have as much of a chance as he can give him to get to the other side of that.
Like the scene in the church in Raven Boys where Gansey sort of compares the idea of losing Ronan to his own death when he was a child is just. It kills me.
It is admittedly not true in the way that Gansey originally thinks it happens, but Ronan also talks about being pretty ambivalent about his continued existence at one point, so I'm not sure I'd say he's entirely out of line, either. It really seems to be Chainsaw where Ronan finally starts to start getting his footing back. And that is very clearly an on-going process. So Gansey and Ronan have pretty good reasons for being as codependent as they are, imo.
And post-Dream Thieves, I could see them managing to work things out to a less intensely codependent degree. (Though, in fiction there are interesting themes in how intense that dynamic is, too.) The idea of Ronan no longer needing Gansey to the same degree, but still wanting him could have been really interesting territory to explore with them! Whereas with Adam... I feel like he has a lot more to work through to reach a similar point.
Admittedly what I've seen of Adam/Ronan is mostly from quotes / meta / etc. But there are definitely some lines that come across like Adam is in love with the feeling of being loved. Which, you know-- he's eighteen and has been through a lot of crap, and survived a life and childhood rather pointedly devoid of love, so I don't even necessarily feel like that would be an awful approach. But the rest of them seem very- yeah, the narrative declaring they have these really deep feelings without really supporting that. So I'm definitely tentative on it.
Oooh, that sounds like a really cool idea for a fic. And god, I loved that bit about thinking that Gansey could feel it when he touched the Pig. Just gosh, the way the Pig functions as this sort of central connection between the boys is so neat.
And yeah, it really feels like a breakup when Ronan leaves K when he has the Pig back. That bit where K says he doesn't have to go back to Monmouth, and Ronan says it's the most ludicrous thing he's said, so he doesn't acknowledge it. The way that Kavinsky is so focused on the idea of Ronan and Gansey having a sexual relationship, and how vicious about it he gets after Ronan leaves him. And also K's phonecall with Gansey when he's in DC, on Ronan's phone. Like he wanted Gansey to know that he has Ronan drunk, and the weird sending him a dick pic thing seems almost like an attempt to create this concept of, you know, sex. And Gansey cannot calm down and suddenly understands why Glendower might have murdered someone and shoved them in a tree. :>
And I'd have to check the wording, but I feel like Ronan and K's "this was never going to be you and me" parallels Adam's thoughts about how it wasn't going to be him and Blue, which I feel really drives in the breakup message. Oh and to go back to the idea of Ronan and K's last confrontation in the forest-- it's basically K saying "you could have me" and Ronan saying "that's not what I want". So yes, absolutely I get the same sort of vibe of 'the other woman' vs. 'the steady relationship'.
And I think there's a line when they're driving to the substance party and Ronan knows where to go, about how he doesn't tell Gansey why he knows the directions, and Gansey doesn't ask him. Which very much casts it as a Contentious Subject that they are Pointedly Not Talking About. And. I mean. In Raven Boys Gansey literally considers trying to give Ronan a curfew or quitting from the crew team so that he can spend more time with him on Fridays nights to keep him away from Kavinsky. Which-- yes, exactly. It's very much presented as being about Ronan being unsafe, but I do think you're right and it feels like it implies a certain sort of unstated jealousy, too.
But yes, excellent! I just reread it because it's such a fun scene. So I'm very jazzed. The whole Gansey-on-fire thing, and how into it Ronan is, it just makes for such a fascinating dynamic. And Kavinsky's attempts at being insulting, and how neither of them flinch about it, is definitely fascinating. So yes! Seeing what spins out from that I think has a whole lot of potential, heh. Especially for possible ship-leaning things. And such. ;)
I did not mean to have this many feelings about this series, but I was hooked from the first book. The characters and their relationships -- or even the potential of those relationships, maybe. It's just really fascinating. And I also like the plot, and the magic of the dreamers/Cabeswater/Adam as the Magician is all really cool.
oh uh, some mention of Ronan's suicide attempt stuff. and boy I got wordy, jfc.
And the whole thing of Blue blaming Adam for not being invited to DC was very ??? to me since this never gets brought up with Gansey-- aka the literal person that invites Adam in the first place, and who was responsible for the trip. Which made their breakup feel sort of- contrived. Which is not to say that Adam didn't behave badly, but their fight seemed less about that and more this weird take that Adam was just treating her like someone he wanted to kiss. So it kind of comes across like "I need them to break up now" and less letting the characters driving the conflict.
One of the things I actually found frustrating about the "Maggie reads the Raven Cycle" tweets, is that for the ones I've gone through so far, she very clearly thinks she telegraphs Gansey/Blue better than it ever came across to me as a reader.
I could pick up on some very vague Adam and Ronan hints in Dream Thieves- but I think that only worked because I knew going in. Whereas the narrative doesn't really mention it at all. We get "Ronan's second secret was Adam Parrish ... It was hard not to stare at the odd and elegant lines of his face." Which does not really suggest interest from either of them at all.
TL;DR, I 100% didn't feel either of the endgame ships were set up well in Dream Thieves at all. It actually sort of irks me a bit. Because I feel like if Ronan did have those feelings, I wanted some hint to come up during his confrontation with Kavinsky in the forest.
"What's here K? Nothing" "Just us" "That's not enough" "Don't say Gansey and don't say you don't swing that way, I'm in your head", etc. Like the fact that Ronan's response there is about Kavinsky allegedly misinterpreting what Gansey is to him, and does not touch on the idea that he apparently has that romantic interest for Adam at all -- not even in the narration -- is Weird.
Personally, I feel like in TRB/TDT, Adam and Gansey both have some unhealthy tendencies toward Roman (and Ronan has some unhealthy tendencies toward both Gansey and K). But I think Gansey's is the one that seems to lean itself more toward an actual relationship.
Like, Adam is just so apathetic about Ronan. And it really seems to come from a place where his inability to accept help is put on other people. Gansey, on the other hand, seems to come from that he's spent the past several months thinking that Ronan had literally tried to kill himself, and that he needs to do everything he can to buy Ronan as much time as he possibly can to have as much of a chance as he can give him to get to the other side of that.
Like the scene in the church in Raven Boys where Gansey sort of compares the idea of losing Ronan to his own death when he was a child is just. It kills me.
It is admittedly not true in the way that Gansey originally thinks it happens, but Ronan also talks about being pretty ambivalent about his continued existence at one point, so I'm not sure I'd say he's entirely out of line, either. It really seems to be Chainsaw where Ronan finally starts to start getting his footing back. And that is very clearly an on-going process. So Gansey and Ronan have pretty good reasons for being as codependent as they are, imo.
And post-Dream Thieves, I could see them managing to work things out to a less intensely codependent degree. (Though, in fiction there are interesting themes in how intense that dynamic is, too.) The idea of Ronan no longer needing Gansey to the same degree, but still wanting him could have been really interesting territory to explore with them! Whereas with Adam... I feel like he has a lot more to work through to reach a similar point.
Admittedly what I've seen of Adam/Ronan is mostly from quotes / meta / etc. But there are definitely some lines that come across like Adam is in love with the feeling of being loved. Which, you know-- he's eighteen and has been through a lot of crap, and survived a life and childhood rather pointedly devoid of love, so I don't even necessarily feel like that would be an awful approach. But the rest of them seem very- yeah, the narrative declaring they have these really deep feelings without really supporting that. So I'm definitely tentative on it.
Oooh, that sounds like a really cool idea for a fic. And god, I loved that bit about thinking that Gansey could feel it when he touched the Pig. Just gosh, the way the Pig functions as this sort of central connection between the boys is so neat.
And yeah, it really feels like a breakup when Ronan leaves K when he has the Pig back. That bit where K says he doesn't have to go back to Monmouth, and Ronan says it's the most ludicrous thing he's said, so he doesn't acknowledge it. The way that Kavinsky is so focused on the idea of Ronan and Gansey having a sexual relationship, and how vicious about it he gets after Ronan leaves him. And also K's phonecall with Gansey when he's in DC, on Ronan's phone. Like he wanted Gansey to know that he has Ronan drunk, and the weird sending him a dick pic thing seems almost like an attempt to create this concept of, you know, sex. And Gansey cannot calm down and suddenly understands why Glendower might have murdered someone and shoved them in a tree. :>
And I'd have to check the wording, but I feel like Ronan and K's "this was never going to be you and me" parallels Adam's thoughts about how it wasn't going to be him and Blue, which I feel really drives in the breakup message. Oh and to go back to the idea of Ronan and K's last confrontation in the forest-- it's basically K saying "you could have me" and Ronan saying "that's not what I want". So yes, absolutely I get the same sort of vibe of 'the other woman' vs. 'the steady relationship'.
And I think there's a line when they're driving to the substance party and Ronan knows where to go, about how he doesn't tell Gansey why he knows the directions, and Gansey doesn't ask him. Which very much casts it as a Contentious Subject that they are Pointedly Not Talking About. And. I mean. In Raven Boys Gansey literally considers trying to give Ronan a curfew or quitting from the crew team so that he can spend more time with him on Fridays nights to keep him away from Kavinsky. Which-- yes, exactly. It's very much presented as being about Ronan being unsafe, but I do think you're right and it feels like it implies a certain sort of unstated jealousy, too.
But yes, excellent! I just reread it because it's such a fun scene. So I'm very jazzed. The whole Gansey-on-fire thing, and how into it Ronan is, it just makes for such a fascinating dynamic. And Kavinsky's attempts at being insulting, and how neither of them flinch about it, is definitely fascinating. So yes! Seeing what spins out from that I think has a whole lot of potential, heh. Especially for possible ship-leaning things. And such. ;)
I did not mean to have this many feelings about this series, but I was hooked from the first book. The characters and their relationships -- or even the potential of those relationships, maybe. It's just really fascinating. And I also like the plot, and the magic of the dreamers/Cabeswater/Adam as the Magician is all really cool.